Trump's Latin Passion

I remember when the Free Abrego Garcia, Karmelo Anthony and “Just Latin Passion against Gringos” Jose Ibarra and Victor Antonio Martinez-Hernandez crowd cheered the imprisonment of Gonzalo Lira.

Kathy, Choke with hatred on this outrage. I don’t understand how the evil rapist Trump had the self control to not bash all of his Sexual Assault victims heads in with a rock when he was in the throes of “Latin Passion” like Jose Ibarra.

Because Trump is far more evil than Ibarra and deserves a far worse punishment like execution. Jose Ibarra was found by a court to be not guilt of rape.

Only Aggravated battery, Aggravated assault with intent to rape, False imprisonment.

A Plea to Republicans

 

A Plea to Republicans

Michael Bailey · Friday, April 18, 2025 · 

“It’s human nature to tie yourself to a leader as much for the services you’ve done him as the good he’s done you.” —Niccolò Machiavelli, The Prince, Chapter 10

A Plea to My Beautiful Republican Friends:

We need your help. We all do.

Our nation is in a dangerous place. The constitutional safeguards we rely on to check the ambitions of our President are fraying—some are already gone. Let me be direct: governance under President Trump is authoritarian in character. He has worked relentlessly to remove impediments to his control. He has wielded not only the full powers of the office, but also the powers of rhetoric, party loyalty, and media influence. Doing this much is not the decisive issue. The problem is that he has also employed legal intimidation, and has targeted judges, governors, universities, news organizations, and prosecutors. If unchecked, our electoral systems and civil liberties will be next—and “next” is now.

That may sound like the hysterical rant of an alarmist. And if that’s your first reaction, here’s what I hope: I hope you’re right, and I’m wrong. I hope the years of study I’ve poured into this topic are misguided. I would much rather be embarrassed for sounding extreme on social media than be proven right by a national catastrophe.

But if you do think I’m unhinged, I suspect it’s for one of three reasons.

First, perhaps you see nothing new here. Didn’t Presidents Obama and Biden also push executive power to the limit? Didn’t Obama issue unconstitutional executive orders on immigration? Didn’t Biden try to forgive $400 billion in student loans without congressional authorization? Where was the outrage then? Why now?

Second, maybe Trump’s actions don’t bother you because they substantively align with your policy preferences. He campaigned on tariffs, law and order, and border enforcement. He won the election—this time, even the popular vote. Isn’t he simply keeping his promises, something Democrats rarely do? Are we really supposed to get worked up because the IRS is a little less comfortable? Isn’t this just a policy dispute dressed up as a constitutional crisis?

Third, perhaps his actions don’t feel threatening because they haven’t touched your life. You’re here legally. You’re not a snobby professor with the privilege of tenure, or a whiny journalist, or a civil rights lawyer. You’ve worked hard and earned your place. You trust that Trump won’t come for you.

Neither of the first two points is entirely baseless.

Recent presidents from both parties have pushed—and sometimes exceeded—constitutional boundaries. That abuse should be called out wherever it occurs. If Democrats only care about overreach when the other team does it, their complaints ring hollow.

And yes, elections do have consequences. Policy victories like shrinking federal agencies or cutting taxes don’t necessarily signal a constitutional crisis. I may disagree with those policies, but they’re part of the democratic process—not a threat to it.

But as for the last point—your sense of security—I genuinely hope you’re right. I pray your trust is well-placed. But here’s where I believe you can make the greatest difference—and why we need your help so desperately.

Despite past abuses from both parties, we are now witnessing something unprecedented: a deliberate, systematic assault—not just on laws, but on the very norms and guardrails that hold the presidency accountable.

We are witnessing an ideology of retribution, of pure vindictiveness, that treats opposition as illegitimate and punishes it ruthlessly. Consider President Trump’s attack on our most iconic institution of higher education, Harvard University, founded in 1636. Frankly, I love hating on Harvard—as most spirited people do. But if I’m going to be honest, I must confess that Harvard is plausibly the single most successful institution of any kind within our nation’s borders. It preceded our nation, and it has been an intellectual haven to the world’s greatest minds. Its contributions to humanity are legion. And it’s taken less than four months for President Trump to effectively threaten its viability as a world-class institution and—like a classic abuser—to demand an apology from it.

Our slide into authoritarianism will not arrive with spectacle or fireworks. It will arrive with congressional votes, court decisions, and executive orders—all under the appearance of legality. And many Americans will mistake this coordinated erosion of checks and balances for legitimate governance, rather than the full-on abdication of constitutional duty these actions signify.

Right now, many in Congress—and not a few judges—fear President Trump more than they fear losing their institution’s authority. Our system only works when each branch jealously guards its own power. Madison wrote that “ambition must be made to counteract ambition.” But that only happens when officeholders believe they have more to gain from defending their institutions than from pleasing the president. Trump has mastered the politics of intimidation. His threats work as well—if not better—against his own party as they do against the opposition.

This is where you come in, my cherished Republican friends.

Republican lawmakers are terrified. Yes, some support Trump unreservedly. But many others support him only cautiously, or provisionally—or not at all. Some disagree with him deeply on constitutional grounds but stay silent because his disapproval could cost them their careers.

They will not act until you give them cover—until millions of Republican constituents tell them that you value free speech, judicial independence, and due process more than President Trump’s regimen of constitutional overreach.

Nothing about your demands requires you to abandon conservatism or the Republican Party. To the contrary, there is nothing “conservative” about abandoning due process. True conservatism fears government overreach. It respects limits. It honors the rule of law. It acknowledges that we live in a nation of competing needs and values. What could be more quintessentially conservative than sober and thoughtful grown-up adults acknowledging that no one in this world gets—or should get—everything they want?

You don’t need to change your ideology. You just need to return to it.

Liberals and Democrats can do very little at this moment. They do not control the presidency, the House, or the Senate. Most states are Republican-governed. The courts are majority Republican-appointed.

If the slide into tyranny is to be stopped, it will be because you stopped it.

And here’s the human truth that Machiavelli grasped, and why I began this plea with his quote: it’s hard to back away from someone we’ve publicly supported. Our endorsements bind us—emotionally, psychologically, relationally—to the people we make them for. I know the feeling. When I discover a student cheats after I’ve written them a letter of recommendation, I struggle to admit it. It feels like a betrayal of me, not just of them, and I am sorely tempted to turn my head, to look away. My success is wrapped up in their own, and it’s hard to acknowledge what has happened.

But I also know this: when you voted for President Trump, you simply wanted more efficient government. You wanted stronger borders. You wanted the nation to stand up for itself. You didn’t vote for Trump because you wanted him to punish universities, silence journalists, or rule by fiat. I believe that because I believe in your character.

I don’t believe you voted for Elon Musk to replace Congress. I don’t believe you hoped Trump would side with Putin over Ukraine. And I don’t believe you wanted a presidency that mocks the very constitutional norms you cherish.

Here’s where it gets personal for me.

If Trump’s power grab continues unchecked, it won’t be stopped just at the ballot box or in the courts. It will eventually spill into the streets, and though it cuts against my every instinct to stay behind a safe screen, I’ll be there on the streets as well. I love my country. Our country was born of protest, and from time to time, it must be defended through protest.

This I fear I must promise you: these protests will be messy. And as with virtually all protests, a few people will go too far. It’s inevitable. And in that moment, President Trump will have his excuse. A single regrettable act—or a handful of regrettable actions carried out by a tiny minority—will become the justification for a full-fledged crackdown. He has already justified dozens of his actions by legally claiming we have an emergency. If President Trump can locate an emergency with regard to sweet and lovely Canada’s posture toward the United States, imagine his wrath when his direct opposition moves in earnest to the street.

The most lawless president in our history will claim ultimate power in the name of “law and order.”

It doesn’t have to go that way. But I truly believe it’s in your hands to prevent it.

I know how much you revere the Constitution. I’m asking you now to honor not just its name—but its practice.

Banned for comparing LGBTQIAMXYZ++ to Incels and White Supremacists

All groups are human and marginalized. 

I guess I just want to if there are  transphobes watching like you do know that like trans people are people like like they they have feelings they are bullied they bleed they feel bad about themselves they strive they train you know they're like I I just wanted to make sure we're like we know they are people.

BTW: I have reached my limit with Paul L. He provided nothing of use and creates nothing but derailed threads and upset regular readers.

Adios, Paul L.

Red scare mccarthyism from OTB

 Stop the red scare mccarthyism. Trump is following in the giant steps of the great World War II Democrat Presidents Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman. Uncle Joe Stalin.

“And yet the Hillary Clinton campaign financed and created one of the greatest works of fiction in living memory in the Steele Dossier,Despite it being total fiction, it enthralled the press, the Intel community, and federal law enforcement for years. And so I applaud her for that work of fiction and am excited about the work she does in the future on her totally fictional presidency,”

1. The Steele Dossier was always raw data, understood by its users as likely to have bad info mixed in with reality. Which it was, as expected, largely true with some bad info mixed in.

2. Where can I find a summary of what was largely true, verified and corroborated in the Steele dossier. In a press release from Sen Adam Schiff or the unredacted Trump FISA warrants that primarily referenced the Steele dossier as evidence that were signed, authorized and approved by FBI law enforcement heroes J. Comey, J. Baker, A. Weissman and A. McCabe?

3. @Steven L. Taylor:

4. Checking the approved official narratives from the main source of conventional wisdom woke thought.

A Red Scare is a form of moral panic provoked by fear of the rise, supposed or real, of left-wing ideologies in a society, especially communism and socialism.

According to wiki McCarthyism can only be applied to left wing ideologies similar to racism only applies to whites

.To my knowledge nothing in the Steele Dossier has been disproven. Which matters not one whit. The Mueller Report, the Senate Bi-Partisan Report, the Stone Trial Transcript, and Manafort’s own admissions all spell out the reality which MAGAts refuse to accept.

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/steele-dossier-retrospective

@Daryl: Michael Cohen in Prague to set up Russia collusion for the 2016 presidential election.

Again, the current public official record does not affirmatively corroborate the assertion that Cohen spearheaded, even for a short time, efforts by the Trump team to obtain unlawful election assistance from the Russian government. But neither does the absence of such detail mean that the dossier is false. For what it’s worth, Cohen strenuously denied ever traveling to Prague, though that denial preceded his guilty plea and (spotty) cooperation with the government.

Is this the standard evidence required for FISA warrants?

The dossier is, quite simply and by design, raw reporting, not a finished intelligence product.

PPPPP strikes again

It was an action that was investigated and deemed “lawful and within Department policy” and “potentially saved Members (of Congress) and staff from serious injury and possible death

Nothing warms my black cold heart more than Police and their defenders pulling off the mask and saying out loud that Policy, Protocol, Procedure, Process and Practice are more important than the law or constitutional rights.

“We investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong but keep the public safe.”

While we deeply regret any distress or inconvenience caused …, our officers acted under the assumption that they were intervening in an emergency, with the safety of the community at the forefront of their actions. This was a decision made in good faith, with the intention of preventing further harm.

We are committed to transparency and accountability in all matters, including this incident, and will defend this new lawsuit. Our priority remains ensuring the safety and security of all individuals in our community, while also ensuring our officers are equipped with the appropriate training and guidance to handle challenging situations with professionalism.

We ask for understanding as we navigate this process and remain dedicated to upholding the trust and safety of the public we serve.”

Jack Smith report.

 This is the normal prosecutor bullshit of scream the indictment on the courthouse steps, maybe a small press release months later when the charges are dropped.

Claims that dismissal of his criminal cases signifies Mr. Ted Stevens’ “complete exoneration.” That is false . As the Office explained in its dismissal motions and in the Report, the Department’s view that prosecutorial misconduct is categorical and does not turn on the gravity of the crimes charged, the strength of the Government’s proof, or the merits of the prosecution-all of which the Office stands fully behind.

OTB Trolling

 Whataboutism: I remember how the Democrats quashed and voted against any reports for the Clinton administration after Bill Clinton left office.

“I think it’s good that Hillary Clinton got the Presidential Medal of Freedom, because not a lot of novelists and fiction writers get the award, And yet the Hillary Clinton campaign financed and created one of the greatest works of fiction in living memory in the Steele Dossier, Despite it being total fiction, it enthralled the press, the Intel community, and federal law enforcement for years. And so I applaud her for that work of fiction and am excited about the work she does in the future on her totally fictional presidency,”

Qualified Immunity for the law enforcement caste
‘All Animals Are Equal but Some Animals Are More Equal Than Others’

While that seems to violate the “no person is above the law” precept, the fact of the matter is that high government officials—in this case, a Presidentially-appointed, Senate-confirmed policymaker—is rightly accorded much more discretion. 

 @Scott:

Good for you using the conveniently memory holed talking point that was discredited and debunked.
The Clinton Campaign paid for the Steele dossier laddering the money using the Perkins Coie law firm lead by Marc Elias to protect it from disclosure as attorney client privilege and work product.
The Washington Free Beacon never hired or paid Christopher Steele.

Since its launch in February of 2012, the Washington Free Beacon has retained third party firms to conduct research on many individuals and institutions of interest to us and our readers. In that capacity, during the 2016 election cycle we retained Fusion GPS to provide research on multiple candidates in the Republican presidential primary, just as we retained other firms to assist in our research into Hillary Clinton. All of the work that Fusion GPS provided to the Free Beacon was based on public sources, and none of the work product that the Free Beacon received appears in the Steele dossier. The Free Beacon had no knowledge of or connection to the Steele dossier, did not pay for the dossier, and never had contact with, knowledge of, or provided payment for any work performed by Christopher Steele. Nor did we have any knowledge of the relationship between Fusion GPS and the Democratic National Committee, Perkins Coie, and the Clinton campaign.
Representatives of the Free Beacon approached the House Intelligence Committee today and offered to answer what questions we can in their ongoing probe of Fusion GPS and the Steele dossier. But to be clear: We stand by our reporting, and we do not apologize for our methods. We consider it our duty to report verifiable information, not falsehoods or slander, and we believe that commitment has been well demonstrated by the quality of the journalism that we produce. The First Amendment guarantees our right to engage in news-gathering as we see fit, and we intend to continue doing just that as we have since the day we launched this project. 

acquire better communication skills.

 Steven L. Taylor says:

Tuesday, 31 December 2024 at 10:38

@Paul L.:

Repeat the direct question that debunks, derails and discredits my “Gish Gallop”.

Direct questions don’t debunk, although the answer to the question might (and the unwillingness or inability to answer can be revealing).

But the point of questions is dialog. And understanding can only come from interaction.

A series of semi-coherent to often utterly incoherent assertions (i.e., your style of posting) does not lead to understanding. It is a central core of human interaction that to be understood, and to understand others, some level of intelligible capacity to articulate positions is necessary. This includes providing evidence and answering and asking questions.

As I have tried to demonstrate to you before, and had told myself I wouldn’t try again (but here we are): if you want to be understood, you need to acquire better communication skills.

It is kind of depressing the degree to which so many of these interactions feel like I am trapped in the Monty Python Argument Sketch.

Connecticut families illegally messed with and rigged the bid process contrary to the sale order and should be punished.

 Do you listen to Alex Jones/Infowars ?

No.  But I have seen bits of  Alex Jones/Infowars.

Connecticut families illegally messed with and rigged the bid process contrary to the sale order and should be punished.  They can't assign a monetary value to embarrassing and laughing at Alex Jones and good feelings by selling InfoWars to the Onion.

Here is a video explaining it. 

it’s also the impermissible collusion with the onion and effort to rig the auction with the goal of achieving a result desired by the Connecticut families yes because they’re [fornicators] [maleoralsexacts] absolute [maleoralsexacts] piece of [POS] [fornicators] I agree that waiver should be determined to be you know what you guys want to [fornicate] around fine $1.5 billion waiver [fornicate] you that’s it you get nothing now you want to [fornicate] around with the money collection we’re done that is how that should work that is how that should work that is how that should work if they want to [fornicate] around like this you know they want to [fornicate] around they should learn they should get the reditor treatment

Evolution

Why is Evolution separated from Abiogenesis when Abiogenesis is just the beginning of Evolution?
Please list the scientific advancements based wholly on the giants and pure essence of science: paradigms/facts of evolution, the big bang and string physics?

Whataboutism

 JKGirl says:

Wednesday, 20 November 2024 at 10:25

Was spreading a poisonous and false conspiracy theory that Russia rigged the 2016 election to get Trump in the White House a violation of “norms?”

Was hiding the physical and mental decline of an incumbent President a violation of “norms?”

Was throwing open the U.S./Mexico border to allow historic levels of illegal immigration a violation of “norms?”

Was trying to prosecute a former President a violation of “norms?” Does it become more or less a violation of “norms” when those prosecutions are essentially abandoned when that President is re-elected?

Was banning the sitting President from social media a violation of “norms?”

Was having members of his administration working to oppose a sitting President’s agenda a violation of “norms?”

Was the FBI spying on a Presidential candidate a violation of “norms?”

Was censoring and suppressing an accurate news story before the 2020 election a violation of “norms?”

Was handing the Democratic Presidential nomination to someone who never won a single primary a violation of “norms?”

Was a Defense Secretary going AWOL while the U.S. was involved in two major military conflicts a violation of “norms?”

Was having a baggie of cocaine show up in the White House a violation of “norms?” How about the Secret Service stretching credulity beyond the breaking point by telling us they couldn’t determine who brought the cocaine into the White House…a violation of “norms” or nah?

How about an outgoing administration escalating a military conflict with a hostile nuclear power after the American people elect a new President with an entirely different view of how the conflict should be handled? Does that violate any “norms?

Our political environment is never going to improve until people like you, James Joyner, can admit you don’t really care about norms or rules or decency or citizenship. You just care about people like you remaining in charge no matter how frequently or how disastrously they screw up.

DK says:

Wednesday, 20 November 2024 at 10:51

@JKGirl: Lies, lies, lies.

You support Trump, an Epstein-bestie pedo who launched his toxic political career with racist birher lies against the first black president. Nobody cares about what you have to say about decency; you and rapist Trump have none.

Yes, Russia interfered in the 2016 election, with Trump’s approval.

Yes, Biden continues to perform his job duties more effectively than any of the younger presidents in recent memory, including obese and elderly fascist Trump, who left office with mass death and record job loss due to his incompetence.

No, Republicans do not care about illegal immigration except to manipulate idiots with racist fearmongering, hence why they passed no immigration bill under Trump and killed the bipartisan, Border Patrol supported border bill under Biden.

No, it does not violate norms to prosecute an orange thug who attempted a violent coup and illegally retained govt secrets. Phony hypocrites that screamed “Lock Her Up” at Hillary know this.

Yes, private social media companies had every right to ban Trump for using their platform to incite the Jan. 6 terror attack, violating their TOS.

True, defeated traitor Trump urging Netanyahu and Putin to undermine Biden was abnormal (and illegal).

No, it’s not abnormal for the FBI to monitor Russian assets.

No, a private social media company taking 24 hours to vet an irrelevant New York Post link about a private citizen was not abnormal. It’s also not censorship.

Yes, parties have every right to choose their nominee however they please.

No, the Secret Service’s behavior of late has not been normal, including the hundreds of Jan 6 text messages they magically deleted and disappeared.

Yes, it’s normal for a US president to defend allies, not letting Putin’s nuclear blackmail control US foreign policy.

The political environment will improve once voters, currently addled on amnesia, are reminded why they booted Republicans in 2018 and Trump in 2020: the amorality, incompetence, treason, and chaos already on display.

Y’all know that clock is ticking, hence why MAGA is still so angry and bitter despite Trump’s pyrrhic 1.5% victory. Delicious!

 

 

Migrant Refugee hero Jose Ibarra

 

Migrant Refugee hero Jose Ibarra demonized by Trump as a rapist and murderer being tried for murder of Laken Riley for rejecting his Latin Passion.

-Felony Murder x 3
-Malice Murder
-False Imprisonment
-Kidnapping
-Aggravated Assault with Intent to Rape
-Hindering a 911 call
-Peeping Tom

The US Law Enforcement and Intelligence communities needs the support, appropriate degree of subservience and complete, unquestioning obedience of citizens not a "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" like the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

Here is a another Trump promise to add to the list:
The US Law Enforcement and Intelligence communities needs the support, appropriate degree of subservience and complete, unquestioning obedience of citizens not a "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" like the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
Patriot Act II!!!!!  Repeal FISA! because you have nothing to hide.

Trump’s third idea was about the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) courts. These courts permit intelligence agencies to spy on people. He said, “We will totally reform FISA courts, which are so corrupt that the judges seem to not care when they are lied to in warrant applications.” He was critical of the FISA courts for their role in what he called “fraudulent warrant applications.” Trump said that many FISA judges are aware that these cases are wrong but don’t do anything about it. He promises to change this practice.

Trump wants to set up a “Truth and Reconciliation Commission” to find and report any hidden wrongdoing by government organizations. Trump says that this committee will work to get documents that show what he calls “deep-state buying, censorship, and corruption” out of secret and into the public eye. “We will set up a truth and reconciliation commission to declassify and publish all documents on the buying, censorship, and corruption by the deep state,” he said. He says that this move would make these powerful organizations more open by letting the public see how they work on the inside.

Goodbye OTB

 

Don’t be a Troll

A reminder (and a warning).

Steven L. Taylor · Thursday, November 7, 2024 · 

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I will be blunt: I am tired of certain commenters who feel the need to insult rather than argue. I would name them here, but I get the impression that that would make them happy. Despite their protestations about the uselessness of the authors of this site, they clearly want us to pay attention to them.

Here’s the deal: we do this for free. It is an outlet and a hobby. It serves certain needs and uses, but there is nothing that requires this place to exist. We don’t need to have comment sections, nor is there any requirement to engage.

I engage because I enjoy it. And, yes, I actually think I have something to say. I know no one has to read it, let another engage me over it. I can live with the fact that comments can sometimes be annoying. I am self-aware enough to know that I, too, can be annoying.

This post is not about annoying.

I have no problem with disagreement.

I would honestly welcome a useful debate from a different perspective.

I understand that locking metaphorical horns with someone who disagrees with you can be cathartic.

BUT.

I do not enjoy sneering complaints and insults.

I see no need to constantly deal with people who can’t even be bothered to engage with the contents of the post.

I have tried to be patient.

I have tried, in some cases to point out that engagement is not happening.

In some cases over the years I have actively tried to help such people learn to engage.

I would note, as I have in the past, commenters are guests. I am not asking for deference, but I am at the end of putting up with rudeness and the derailing of conversation. Life is short and my time is valuable, at least to me.

SO.

Starting right now I will delete any comment that is rude or simply oppositional for the point of being oppositional.

Anything deemed derailing will be gone. Anything that hints of insult will be trashed.

And soon, commenters who can’t act like adults will be banned.

We provide a free and open space for anyone who can behave.

So. Behave.

Harris can still win.

I look forward to Republicans pushing universal background checks and mandatory gun buybacks just like the Democrats.
The Democrats will vote not to certify the count of the Electoral College ballots during a joint session of the United States Congress, pursuant to the Electoral Count Act.
A 15-member Electoral Commission (headed by legal juggernaut luminaries of Laurence Tribe, Glenn Kirschner, Liz Cheney, Alberto Gonzales, George Conway) will give the Presidency to Harris as occurred with the Electoral disputes and Compromise of 1877 also known as the Wormley Agreement, the Bargain of 1877, or the Corrupt Bargain .

And overlooking the hypocrisy.

The new “evidence” becomes public despite prior warnings from both Chutkan and Jack Smith that pre-trial publicity would jeopardize the “fair administration of justice” in the case.

an update on the j6 case before the debate got underway we read through a filing from Trump’s defense team and they were rubbing Jack Smith’s nose in his prior filings saying Jack how dare you want to release all of this material in the month before the election when months ago you said if Trump talked about any of these Witnesses or any of this evidence it was going to be the end of democracy, the administration of justice was going to be tarnished and we were all going to die well now they’re perfectly happy publishing it all.

Trolling at OTB

 Ann Althouse embraces the woke tankies attack on the Matt Walsh movie "Am I Racist?"
<blockquote>"That sums up what bothered me about the movie. The filmmaker had an agenda, so I couldn't trust him to be fair to the people he was tricking. And of course, tricking them itself is unfair. "</blockquote>
Whataboutism Same apply to Michael Moore's or Katie Couric's “Under the Gun,” excellent according to the commenters here documentaries?
@<a href="#comment-2961818">charontwo</a>:
This response made me smile.
<blockquote>@liekitisnot Ted claims they lied and he read their testimony. I just provided their testimony.
I'm not here to argue with your bullshit. If you want to live in a fantasy where facts don't matter, go right ahead, but don't expect me to join you in your delusional sandbox [litterbox] full of cat shit.</blockquote>
Matt B.  I am researching the Gish gallop pushed as a logical fallacy by you and Mehdi Raza Hasan.  
Listened to Mehdi's interview with Preet Bharara, It seems like a excuse and cope for someone having swatted/batted away every political narrative and tangent that was thrown at them to discredit them.

Back in OTB comment jail

  Paul L. says:

Monday, 16 September 2024 at 14:56

Whataboutism.

[Better job on your revision Paul. You’re getting closer to something that is the ball park of addressing the topics of the post. It’s still the gishiest of gallops, but at least you’re getting to something that is human readable and on point.

Suggestion: it might be useful for you to explain which of my points is whataboutism and whether or not you think Vance or Trump is correct about the rhetoric being dangerous topic.

Keep at it and you’ll make it there. I believe in you! – Your Orwellian Overlord!

ps. also for transparency, this email address is now going to moderation first, so we get to have these semi-public discussions without anyone else seeing what you wrote. Again, you are free to write your thoughts on your own site about this and share a link here. I will never edit that out.]

 

And he deletes the response.

 @<a href="#comment-2960774">Matt Bernius</a>:
Most of that post was the 2nd second Trump shooter repeating Democrat talking points about saving Democracy.
And you believe it was the closest that I have been to being on topic.
<blockquote>You’re getting closer to something that is the ball park of addressing the topics of the post. It’s still the gishiest of gallops, but at least you’re getting to something that is human readable and on point.</blockquote>
To refute part of your post.
<blockquote>
 Republicans [and their allies in the gun lobby], have been a bit too successful for their own good when it comes to successfully getting the public to move on from mass shootings. In the past, to deflect discussions of gun control in the wake of mass shootings</blockquote>
I don't see the Trump assassinations as mass shootings.   
A Mass shooting [Mass Murder by gun] implies that the shooter was using a weapon of war for its designed function of murdering "as many people as quickly as possible & to do the most damage [to any survivors](ask a doctor)."
Not the definition that includes the NYCPD gunning down civilians for officer safety in the 2012 Empire State Building shooting as a mass shooting.
<a href="https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/explainer">a minimum of four victims shot, either injured or killed, not including any shooter who may also have been killed or injured in the incident. </a>
I remember when the Republican baseball practice was attacked "for healthcare" and it was spun by the media and Democrats as it was a attack on all of Congress instead of just Republicans.
Remember how to defeat and humiliate me and my Gish gallop.
<blockquote>Mehdi Hasan, a British[/American/Muslim] journalist, suggests using three steps to beat the Gish gallop
Because there are too many falsehoods to address, it is wise to choose one as an example. Choose the weakest, dumbest, most ludicrous argument that the galloper has presented and tear that argument to shreds ("the weak point rebuttal").
    Do not budge from the issue or move on until having decisively destroyed the nonsense and clearly made the counter point.
<blockquote></blockquote>
 You have used point #3.
    Call out the strategy by name, saying: "This is a strategy called the 'Gish Gallop'—do not be fooled by the flood of nonsense you have just heard."</blockquote>

 Update

Matt Bernius says:

Monday, 16 September 2024 at 17:00

@Paul L.:
See Paul, it might have taken a few rounds of edits, but you delivered a comment that was coherent enough in unpacking your thinking that it makes it through without any edits.

Most of that post was the 2nd second Trump shooter repeating Democrat talking points about saving Democracy.

For the record, because you don’t cite your sources, that isn’t clear to your reader. How hard is it to write:
“Here are some of the attempted shooters most recent posts from x:”?

Beyond that, the shooter did repeat Democrat talking points in… checks notes… a tweet or two. And this is a huge challenge with your reasoning process. You find a single example of someone writing something and then project it out to be their only belief no matter how much else the person has written that might contradict it. Which turns everyone–including yourself–into a hypocrite. Which at the end of the day is nihilistic and useless for having a discussion.

If you are advancing the idea that this person’s actions were created by a democratic talking point, then there is a wealth of evidence that the current campaign of terror on the community of Springfield OH is based on things that Trump and Vance have said:

“Unfortunately, right now we have to focus on making sure this rhetoric is dispelled, that these rumors are just—they’re just not true. You know, Springfield is a beautiful place and your pets are safe in Springfield,” Rue said, laughing slightly at how insane it all sounded. …
Coates sighed, exasperated, while Rue shook his head. “If you could speak to the former president what would you tell him?” Coates asked.

“We need help, not hate,” Rue repeated. He criticized lawmakers who carelessly cast the city of Springfield in a negative light.

“We have a beautiful city, and we need, we need the national stage to pay attention to what their words are doing to cities like ours,” Rue added. “We don’t need this pushback that is hurting our citizens and hurting our community—I would say that to anybody who would take a mic and say those things.” [source]

So I call whataboutism on your whataboutism and also hit you with the wild draw 4 card!

BTW, you haven’t told us of you come down on “rhetoric doesn’t cause actions” (J. D. Vance) or “rhetoric causes actions” (Trump). So that’s also a reverse card there. Which of the two views do you ascribe to?

To refute part of your post.

Republicans [and their allies in the gun lobby], have been a bit too successful for their own good when it comes to successfully getting the public to move on from mass shootings. In the past, to deflect discussions of gun control in the wake of mass shootings

I don’t see the Trump assassinations as mass shootings.

I completely agree with you. The assassination attempts are technically not mass shootings (though in the first one multiple people were hit). They are still extraordinary shooting incidents. So, unsurprisingly, the same general principles appear to apply in terms of how people are processing them.

And I also suggested, through the Don Jr quote, that perhaps Republicans haven’t taken past non-shooting political assassination attempts particularly seriously. Sew the wind and reap the whirlwind.

A Mass shooting [Mass Murder by gun] implies that the shooter was using a weapon of war for its designed function of murdering “as many people as quickly as possible & to do the most damage [to any survivors](ask a doctor).”
Not the definition that includes the NYCPD gunning down civilians for officer safety in the 2012 Empire State Building shooting as a mass shooting.
a minimum of four victims shot, either injured or killed, not including any shooter who may also have been killed or injured in the incident.
I remember when the Republican baseball practice was attacked “for healthcare” and it was spun by the media and Democrats as it was a attack on all of Congress instead of just Republicans.
Remember how to defeat and humiliate me and my Gish gallop.

See you were doing so well… and then you go down a mass shooting rat hole of a Gish Gallop. Also you lose points for failing to address the latest police instigated mass shooting in NYC over the crime of… checks notes… jumping a turnstile.
https://gothamist.com/news/at-least-1-nypd-officer-shot-near-brooklyn-l-train-police-say

Remember how to defeat and humiliate me and my Gish gallop.

Oh Paul, I’m not trying to humiliate you. My entire intent is how to teach you to bring a coherent argument. Any humiliation you feel is well… on you. In that process I’m not going to let you get away with Gish Gallops anymore.

Mehdi Hasan, a British[/American/Muslim] journalist, suggests using three steps to beat the Gish gallop
Because there are too many falsehoods to address, it is wise to choose one as an example. Choose the weakest, dumbest, most ludicrous argument that the galloper has presented and tear that argument to shreds (“the weak point rebuttal”).
Do not budge from the issue or move on until having decisively destroyed the nonsense and clearly made the counter point.

You have used point #3.

Call out the strategy by name, saying: “This is a strategy called the ‘Gish Gallop’—do not be fooled by the flood of nonsense you have just heard.”

Yup. You are correct. That is exactly what I am doing. It’s great that you recognize it.

Once you stop galloping, I won’t have to do that any more. So develop the self understanding to understand you are starting a gallop and stop before you do it. Otherwise the same thing will keep happening. And since I, for the moment, control the edit button, you’re never going to win with a gish gallop. What I will always commit to is being honest when I’m editing yours (or anyone else’s posts) and be transparent about when I am taking the basic steps needed address bullshit being spread.

And as I say every time, if you don’t want to be edited, post something one your blog and put a link to it here.

 

OTB mentions Scheffler arrest after hand waving it away.

 Paul L. says:

Tuesday, 10 September 2024 at 15:30

Scheffler is a model citizen accidentally detained by officers providing security for a huge event in which Scheffler was a major participant.

Wrong. Scheffler was arrested for second-degree assault of a police officer, a class-C felony, and three misdemeanors: third-degree criminal mischief, reckless driving, disregarding traffic signals from an officer directing traffic and should have been charged with contempt of cop and obstruction. Far worst than misdemeanor speeding, not wearing a seat belt, contempt of cop and obstruction.
Prosecutor dropped the case because he has tens of millions of dollars and the US legal system favors the rich. Oh and the video showed the cop was a liar.
Tyreek Hill was Insufficiently Servile and didn’t show complete, unquestioning obedience that cops demand excusing bad cops abusing their authority to show a rich black guy who is boss.
@Michael Reynolds:

The Fraternal Order of Police endorsed a rapist and convicted felon whose thugs attacked police over the course of hours on January 6. Thugs supporting a thug.

This is on topic because? Can I bring up the Miami cops who attacked and arrested someone recording them in a hotel?

convicted felon and adjudicated rapist Draft dodging Donald Trump desecrated the scared and hallowed ground of Arlington

 https://outsidethebeltway.com/trump-claims-arlington-photo-op-was-a-set-up/?unapproved=2958563&moderation-hash=3fd9120bfb91f24c7e51e6b80c42b646#comment-2958563

I hope the Democrats make it a major issues in the 2024 campaign that the mere presence of convicted felon and adjudicated rapist Draft dodging Donald Trump desecrated the sacred and hallowed ground of Arlington.
It was an example of hate speech that the “growing consensus among social justice advocates that bigoted or simply emotionally triggering speech is akin to physical violence and should be regulated as such.”.
Along complete gun registration and confiscation.